Beyond the physical and mental aspects of pursuing your calling is the importance of spirituality. Too often, when people still feel like there is something missing, it is often this aspect that they forget about. Dr. David Gruder is an award-winning clinical and organizational developmental psychologist who helps leaders and influencers repair and elevate the world with the missing spiritual, inner, and outer skills needed to succeed in their calling. He joins Timothy J. Hayes, Psy.D., to discuss with us how he is doing that. He takes us deep into some energy psychology methods and what he calls Paradigm Sculpting, then shares a couple of tips on finding the therapist that best matches you. Follow along to this conversation with Dr. Gruder, where he takes us further into foundational wellbeing or self-care and how we can best become a positive influence in the world.
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Equipping Leaders The Spiritual Skills To Elevate The World With Dr. David Gruder
In the fifth decade of his career, Dr. David Gruder refers to himself as a recovering psychologist and professional troublemaker. Drawing on the dizzying range of leadership, training, consulting and clinical roles he has filled over the years. These days, this award-winning clinical and organizational developmental psychologist mainly focuses on equipping leaders and influencers who are called to help repair and elevate the world with the missing spiritual, inner and outer skills needed to succeed in their calling. Dr. Gruder’s main website is DrGruder.com and his online course portal is GruderAcademy.com.
Dr. Gruder, thank you for being here. Welcome.
Thank you. I’m happy to be here with you, Dr. Hayes.
It’s an honor. I’ve heard quite a bit about you from a mutual friend of ours. I was hoping you could start us off by letting us know how you got into your current position and what drives your passion for this work?
How I got into my current roles in my career as I look back with the advantage of 2020 hindsight that is only available at the point in life that I’m in. As I look back, I see how the entire fabric of my life has set me up to do the work that I do now. It’s staggering to me to realize that as I was going through various experiences that I’ve had in my life, there was no way to know ahead of time, what I was being groomed for.
I’ve had a similar experience and one of the things that we talked about that we share in common is exposure to energy medicine, energy work in psychology, the idea of whether you want to do acupuncture, acupressure meridian systems, things of that nature. Tell us a little bit about how you got involved in that.
That was an interesting side of my career. In the mid-1970s, I became an administrator for what was at that time and no longer exists has been replaced, but at that time, it was the first and only professional association for the emerging holistic health field for practitioners and innovators. It was a professional association. Now we call it Integrative Medicine and Health. At that time, I was exposed to all kinds of amazing innovative things where the geniuses and the bonafide innovators were side by side with the quacks. We had to learn very quickly how to discern between the true innovators and the quacks in the field.
I was first trained in some of the origins of what led to energy psychology a couple of decades later. At that time, I was trained by John Thie in Touch for Health. I was trained in a number of different energy-oriented methods, including Neuro Emotional Technique, NET, by Scott Walker, a chiropractor who happened to be my chiropractor at that point in time. He was in the process of beginning to develop NET. It goes back a long way. If we fast forward to 1998, I allowed myself to be arm-twisted into cofounding and serving as the first president for the Association for Comprehensive Energy Psychology, ACEP, which is the umbrella professional organization for the field and the entire family of energy psychology methods. Probably the most well-known of which these days is EFT, Emotional Freedom Techniques.
In your career, were you doing one-on-one clinical work with people and incorporating these tools? Were you using them for yourself or both?
First and foremost, I always guinea pig myself on things before I ever think about whether I’m going to bring them to clients. That said, my career up until 2000, for the first 20 years of my career, my schedule allowed me to include in everything else I was doing a clinical psychology practice. I was providing psychotherapy. I was most definitely using energy psychology methods with a large percentage of my clients, at least some of the time with them.
I’ve also used it extensively in training healthcare professionals and psychological professionals in these methods and using them in my work with executives, leaders, innovators, and influencers which is my current focus in my career. The keynotes, training programs, and business consulting that I was doing throughout my career, that part of my career caused me to spend so much time on the road by the year 2000. It was no longer viable for me to continue to have a psychotherapy practice because I was saying to clients, “You’re going to have to hold this crisis. I’ll be back in town for a couple of weeks and then you’re going to have to hold the next crisis too.” That didn’t work well in psychotherapy.The final arbiter of progress or success is what happens out in the person's life. Click To Tweet
These days, how do you spend most of your time? How are you gracing your clients with the work you do as an organizational psychologist and as somebody who’s known for working with integrity in your work?
My primary focus these days is on working with leaders and influencers who are themselves called to do their part, whatever their part is, in repairing and elevating the world by equipping them with spiritual, inner and outer skills that enable them to succeed with whatever their mission is.
One of my favorite teachers says, “There is nothing more practical than true spirituality.” What are the spiritual skills you’re talking about?
That starts with what I call Paradigm Sculpting where people master their ability to be the architects of their self-view and their worldview. The worldview and the self-view that they are embodying, rather than hoping to embody, helps them feel the way that their highest self wants to feel. Also, act in the way in the world and the ways that they most want to act from their highest self. It starts with having a sense of purpose and having a sense of clarity and embodiment of whatever paradigm, worldview and self-view that helps them embody their mission effectively.
From there it goes into the kinds of humility and self-responsibility that are skills that I have found that need to be developed for being able to get out of the way. Something I got very clear in myself. At the age of thirteen was the first experience I had with that. It was an amazing experience in which there was no me. Things coming through me were far more transcendent and far more transformative than my seemingly separated ego-self could possibly have created. It starts there.
That began with you at age thirteen?
That was when I had my first experience of getting out of the way, the first conscious experience of that. I’ll add that, at that point in my life, I had no way to talk about it because it was outside of the worldview of my parents. When I tried to figure out a way to speak of it, it fell on deaf ears because I had no paradigm for talking about that experience.
When you look at people who are maybe 40, 50 or 60 years old, before they even get introduced, hopefully by someone like you, about the need for that kind of paradigm shift are getting their egoic self out of the way, what kind of tools do you use to help them experience that or move in that direction?
It’s a combination of psychoeducation and specific skills. If I need to use tools as well, but the psychoeducation starts with helping people become awake about the spell that they don’t know, partly know, or maybe into it that they have been under, but haven’t known how to get their hands on identifying the anatomy of that spell. When I’m working with people to disengage from their loyalty to the spell and step into full resonance with the paradigm that they most want to be living from, and the purpose that they feel most called to embody in this world. I most often use energy psychology methods to facilitate that when needed.
Is there a specific to each individual spell that you’re talking about, or is there a general spell that you believe we’re all operating under at least in Western culture? How do you approach that?
The answer is yes. We have a cultural spell that all of us are at least introduced to, if not indoctrinated into, but we’re certainly swimming in that water. We have our own personal spells as well. We have whatever survival plan. We needed to call upon our internal genius to develop as children in order to survive whatever it is that we needed to survive. The spell there is that by the time we become adults, we’ve been practicing our survival plan skills for so long that they’ve become automatic, habitual and unconscious. We come into adulthood thinking that those skills are who we are rather than how we survived. We have personal spells to break through as well.
When you talk about energy psychology, is there something specific that you use? Do you use the Neuro Emotional Technique, or the EFT tapping to help either identify and/or break through those spells for the individual?
I actually use something that is called comprehensive energy psychology, or comprehensive energy psychotherapy. It is an integrative approach that incorporates what I found to be the common ingredients, implicit or explicit, that virtually every member of the energy psychology family of methods seems to use, including EFT. When I was serving as ACEPs founding president, one of the things that was very precious to me, in addition to creating a durable sustainable infrastructure for the organization’s long-term thriving, was to represent the family of methods.
Any of the energy psychology methods that I wasn’t trained in before I became ACEPs first president, I made a point of getting training in during my tenure as its president. What I found was that there were six ingredients that all energy psychology methods take into account, whether explicitly or implicitly. Comprehensive energy psychology is a framework that harnesses those six ingredients as a foundational training that supercharges the practitioner’s ability to use any of the methods in the energy psychology family of methods.
Is there a way to quickly list what those six are?
There is because they’re based on what I view as six common sense questions that all psychotherapy clients, all self-developers, all practitioners, and all helping professionals have. The first question is, how do I know when my client is ready to work on any particular issue? There are times on a common-sense level where we’re too stressed, too wigged out, or somebody cut us off on the highway when we were driving somewhere. We’re too frazzled to focus on working on any particular issue of ours. How do we know when we are or our client is ready to start working on a specific issue at a given moment in time?
The second question is, how do we tune in on or hone in on the most useful issue to work on now? What level of what issue to work on now? The third question is, how do we evaluate progress during the session? The final arbiter of progress or success is what happens out in the person’s life, but while we’re doing something in a session, we have to have a way of evaluating progress so we know what to do next as the session unfolds.
The fourth question is, how do we secure full internal permission to succeed with treating whatever issue has been selected to work on? The fifth is, what is the most useful method to use in treating this layer, of this issue, at this moment, with this person? After that, doing a round of what I’ve treated using whatever that treatment is, which leads to the second sixth question, what do we do next, and next, and next after each round of treatment as the treatment unfolds, and how do we know when we’re done? Those are six common sense questions, that all good psychotherapy should revolve around, but energy psychology methods have very specific interventions with each of those questions.
I understand that you’re not doing a lot of one-on-one personal therapy.
I only train and mentor therapists.
When you’re looking to advise people, either the therapist you’re training or the people who might be in need of a therapist, what do you tell them to look for when they’re trying to find a good match between their personal needs and a therapy or a therapist?
That’s a marvelous and important question. A couple of things. First of all, I emphasize the difference between expertise and chemistry. Expertise is important to evaluate and there are plenty of people that are true experts in working with whatever issues that particular practitioner works with. They don’t necessarily have chemistry with everyone who comes to them. I do encourage consumers to trust their gut about the chemistry piece. They’ve got to feel a rapport with the person they’re working with. That doesn’t mean that the person is going to be their best friend or anything like that, but there has to feel an energetic, emotional and empathic connection.We have to have a way of evaluating the progress, so we know what to do next. Click To Tweet
The second thing that I teach people, which I consider to be just as important, is right matching at the level of whatever is most important for that person to be working on at that particular point in time. Not all therapy methods are right for all people and even methods that are right for a particular person aren’t necessarily the methods that are most useful for them at the particular stage in their journey they’re in. What I do is I help people understand essentially what I call the flow of life, which is that we all go through cycles or chapters throughout our lives, where things are going fairly well in a particular part of our life or a particular chapter in our life and then we start getting these wake-up calls. These little knocks upside the head saying, “There’s an issue here to be dealing with.”
There’s an old saying, “Mostly people change not because they see the light, but because they feel the heat.” The intensity of the wake-up calls has to become high enough so that person becomes committed to true healing. This is something that I trained consumers in is the ability to recognize the difference between somebody wanting to have their symptoms controlled, wanting to develop a better mousetrap, survival plan or raise their pain tolerances even higher, versus someone who’s looking to clear away the root cause baggage that’s been causing their wake up calls in the first place.
Once a person answers a wake-up call, then they go through the transformation chapter. Those are chapters in our lives where we’re doing deep inner work. I have found that there are seven key focus areas that people go through intuitively if they’re successful in healing. I educate consumers about that so they can identify which of those seven areas they are focused on in their transformation cycle so that they know exactly what kind of resources to look for. Sometimes, frankly, as you know, the best intervention is not necessarily a psychotherapeutic intervention.
It’s another seven points.
The first is the linchpin which is the surrender piece, the self-responsibility piece. The piece that says, “I’ve been bludgeoned into surrender, I know I have a piece of healing to do. My best thinking has helped me get into this mess so my best thinking is not going to be what helps me get out of this mess. I have to open up. I’m willing to open up. I’m committed to opening up to being teachable.” That’s the first Is that kind of teachability, self-responsibility and spiritual humility.
The second is foundational wellbeing or self-care. When a person is in a state of turmoil in their lives, where all kinds of externals are stressful for them. Relationships, living situation, work situation, or their health. They’re not getting enough sleep. They’re not they’re not eating well. They don’t have the internal reasons sources that are necessary to be able to do the deeper work of healing. Elevating one’s foundational wellbeing is a necessary prerequisite for being able to sustainably do the deeper inner work. A lot of what people do is they go straight to the deeper inner work and they don’t have the support system in their lives to be able to support them in moving forward and then they wonder why they’ve come to gridlock inside themselves, or they’re shutting down.
The third is elevating a person’s capacity for discernment. What I mean by discernment is the ability to recognize sensations that we’re having in our body and inquire about those sensations so that we learn what our internal input is on a particular issue. Higher input, the ability to discern between when my fear is telling me what to do, and I’m calling it intuition, mistakenly and when it’s my intuition or higher guidance, that’s giving me input. The third aspect of discernment is discernment with others because there are some people who are, as you know, in the relationship literature, what’s called impervious to input. They won’t take input from anybody. There are other people who were at the other extreme, where they’re indiscriminate sponges. They’ll take anything anyone says on board and try to pretend like it’s their own truth.
There’s higher discernment, internal discernment, and external discernment. When that’s elevated, then we really can do the harvesting work, which is the fourth skill. The ability to do the level of internal healing and clean out that we need to do in order to get to a place where the undigested, unexpected, undesired, and even unacceptable life experiences we’ve had have been converted into sacred spiritual gifts that elevate our authenticity. Our capacity to love and collaborate with each other, and our ability to be a positive influence in the world. Harvesting is the fourth skillset.
The fifth is stepping into healthy personal power so that we’re able to embody more of what we’re really here to do because we’re now freer from the baggage that’s been holding us back. The sixth is elevating our capacity to synergize or collaborate with others because most people have only been taught how to either coerce, control others, or give into other people controlling them or to compromise. The best outcome with compromise is all parties walk away from the negotiating table feeling equally ripped off.
Stepping into synergy happens when we’re whole and complete as human beings, which is the authenticity or the personal power piece, then we step into elevating our capacity for collaboration and synergy. The final seventh skill is about stepping into our capacity for stewardship so that we’re able to express that part of our core drive, that has to do with the desire to be a positive influence in the world in whatever particular way we’re particularly called to be. With whatever groups were called to be that influence inside of.
The idea is that if you’re going to be on a journey, you want a good map. Any good map is going to show you both where you are accurately, which most people don’t understand yet. Those initial assessments, my personal resources, and my willingness to either get rid of the symptom or do the work and a map to show me where I might go, and how I can get there step by step. The thing I like about speaking to someone like you who’s giving an overview is that I’m hearing the words that I would use as a therapist, being presented in a more organized or an organizational roadmap way as I’m listening to you speak. It’s the very thing we do often as therapists without realizing we’re doing it, as you said, the six principles.
I remember, probably back in ‘95, I ran across Bruce Ecker and Laurel Hulley. Their work was so powerful because all they did was go and analyze in those sessions where people had deep transformations, what the heck was happening. They got permission to do the transcripts, videos and audios. They put their genius minds to work looking at the patterns. They discovered the thing you’re laying out. These days, that work is called coherence therapy. Coherence therapy is this umbrella term or foundational term, within which you can use any of these tools like energy psychology or any other good psychotherapeutic tool. I understand that you’re training other therapists to think this way and be able to language or talk about how they’re doing what they’re doing, and then maybe hopefully, spread that out to others. That’s very exciting.
It’s very exciting because it’s about empowering therapists to do on purpose what they’ve been doing intuitively but haven’t understood fully enough to be able to harness it. It came out of my study of what I call natural developers intuitively do, that the rest of us deliberate self-developers might want to do on purpose. Which was in turn an outgrowth of what I did for my doctoral dissertation back in the late ‘70s, early ‘80s, where I was looking at what were the client contributions to successful therapy, rather than the therapist’s contributions or the treatment method’s contributions. That’s what started me off on that journey.
What I was noticing in my psychotherapy years, I’m sure you’ve experienced this, too, there are certain clients that would come to us that have come from horrendous backgrounds. Way on the extreme end of dysfunctionality and yet, they have somehow intuitively become transformed to lift themselves out of those horrendous backgrounds. Whereas certain people who come from very garden-variety backgrounds don’t transform to save their lives. I got very interested in what are these intuitive, natural self-developers doing intuitively that people like me who are more of a deliberate self-developer might want to do on purpose? That’s where this came from for me, and it is aligned with coherence therapy. I was doing this before that work came out.
Coherence therapy isn’t the only one. When you look at how the emotional freedom technique developed, it developed after a lot of people were doing a lot more structured energy work with knowledge of the acupuncture meridian systems. You mentioned, Dr. Scott Walker, and I’m trained in that technique. It’s one of the more powerful techniques I know how to use with somebody one on one. Just about the same time that was happening, when Dr. Scott Walker was doing his neuro emotional technique, at least three other systems that were whole health systems looking at nutrition, energy work and toxicity. They were developing in different places like the United Kingdom and Central Southern America.
I’ve always been drawn to those things that when someone teaches it, all kinds of people can pick it up and use it. I’ve had many trainings over many years where I saw phenomenally gifted, genius, creative people on stage or in therapy rooms do tremendous work with people and then not be able to replicate it and not be able to teach it to others. They talk about teaching it and I would take the training and I know other talented, intelligent people take the training, and we couldn’t get anywhere near the results. That’s what I like about the structure you’re providing and what I’ve been drawn to. That’s the Journey’s Dream. It’s the stepchild of the Optimal Being program, which is one of those things that just about anybody can pick up and do. It’s doing a lot of what your seven skills are.
I didn’t invent these. All I was functioning as a reporter. I don’t think of this as my creation or my invention. Part of my background is in journalism. I set out to do my best to report what I was observing.
What’s an area of your work that I haven’t even asked you about yet?
I am one of those people who loves variety and my career has always had a lot of variety. For example, one of the hats that I wear is I’m a what’s called an M&A success psychologist, Merger and Acquisitions. In the business world, when a business is getting prepared to be sold, or when a business is acquired, and then the transition to the new owner needs to be facilitated. I work with businesses from a psychological and business success in helping businesses develop from psychological dimensions and helping to facilitate effective sales of and acquisitions of businesses. That’s another hat that I wear.
I work with executives and leaders to help them step into the psychological skills that they would be wise to develop in order to be more successful as leaders. I work with a program that’s developing a new comprehensive integrated infrastructure for building psychologically and ecologically healthy cities. There are a number of different hats that I wear in the organizational development and leader development realms.
Specifically, as it comes to training therapists, this is cycling back to one of the questions, and you answered it in a general way. If I’m going to coach somebody about how to find a therapist that’s a good fit for them, you want the expertise and the chemistry. What I’ve been telling people for years is they need two things at a bare minimum for therapy to work, someone that knows what he or she is doing, and someone with whom they’re comfortable. If either of those two things are missing, don’t waste your time and money because you can have the very best therapist in the world, but if you don’t feel comfortable with her, you won’t go to her long enough that she can help you or tell her the things she needs to know to help you.
Your best friend in the world, you’re up until 3:00 and 4:00 in the morning, several nights a week talking about everything that’s ever bothered you. That’s good and lovely, sometimes very helpful, but that’s not therapy. That person doesn’t have a professional distance and the professional training to do for you what therapy can. If there’s a way for you to say, if somebody came to you on the street, or a family friend said, “What keywords or what approaches should I be looking for, or screen out what I don’t want?” If I’m troubled with depression, anxiety or mood swings, these kinds of things that are the most common referrals we get, where would you start with keywords or search items?Stepping into synergy happens when we're whole and complete as human beings. Click To Tweet
Before the search items, the categories that I encourage people to contemplate and get clear about in terms of what they’re wanting are these, are they in the other point in their journey where what they’re looking for, the intervention, assistance, or resource they’re looking for, is about giving them hope, inspiration, and motivation? If so, there’s a whole motivational and inspirational community out there for those kinds of things, or are they looking for what I call an altered state experience. Meaning that there are certain workshops that exist that help people tap into an expanded state of awareness or an expanded state of themselves. Something they don’t know is there or they hope is there but they haven’t experienced.
They need to connect with that expanded version of themselves in order to have enough faith to take a deeper healing journey. I’m not talking about drugs here. A lot of the human potential movement workshops are giving people an expanded awareness or an expanded experience so they have a taste of who they could step into being. After the end of that experience, then they have to be willing to do the work in order to live there all the time, so are they looking for that experience?
Are they looking for baggage removal experience, where they’re getting in there and clearing away the stuff that stands between them and who they want to be being in the world? That’s more of a psychotherapy experience. Are they looking for a more advanced psychotherapy experience, because they’ve done truly a lot of effective cleanout work, but they’re not in full resonance with embodying the desired state that they want to be in the world from? Are they looking for elevating habits and skills for embodiment? Are they looking for a resource that helps them translate new skills for thriving instead of surviving, into automatic daily habits? Are they looking for an accountability mentor? Are they looking for a way to make sure that those skills that they’re learning become a day to day habit? I assess which of those types of experiences are right matched for where they are in order to know what type of resource to recommend to them.
Do you have a set of questions? Do you do that in an interview form? Is that a tool you have to make that assessment?
When I’m having a conversation with someone, this is material that I developed back in the 1990s, it fully came together and it has refined itself since then. I can do this fairly quickly when I’m talking one on one with someone. What I have also developed is a self-help training program that equips people to become effective consumers on their own behalf of self-development resources that are right matched to what to whatever phase in their journey they’re in. Whatever resource category, they’re going to most benefit from at a given point in time.
You have a self-help development resource?
Yes, I do.
That’s on DrGruder.com?
Yes. If you go to the Academy, DrGruder.com/academy, you’ll go to a page that has all of my online programs and the one that I’m referring to is called The Integrity Guide to Having It All.
I am thrilled that you were gracious with this time. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I look forward to following your work. Maybe reach out to you again, see if you’re willing to do another interview on a specific topic that’s a little bit closer to your heart.
Thank you for all of the work that you’re doing with Optimal Being and Journey’s Dream. It’s important work that’s being done and it’s a great nonprofit. Thank you for being part of that.
You’re entirely welcome and deserving. Thank you so much.
Dr. David Gruder is a clinical and organizational development psychologist whose parents went to Woodstock when he was fifteen years old. His passion is equipping leaders and influencers with spiritual, inner and outer skills for repairing and elevating the world in whatever ways each of us is called to do. He’s been named America’s Integrity Expert by Radio-TV Interview Report and he is an award-winning TEDx speaker. He provides keynotes, training programs, consulting, and media interviews worldwide on ways to integrate self-development, business success and societal wellbeing. He has co-authored, authored, or been featured in 24 books, and has given multiple hundreds of media interviews, including having been featured dozen of times in Forbes Incorporated, Entrepreneur and nonprofit performance magazines.
In his quest to elevate mental health individuals, leaders, and society, David wears many hats including President of Integrity Culture Systems, psychological business strategist, and mergers and acquisition psychologist for Blue Sky Business Resources and Elevate Summits, WayFinder for SynerVision Leadership Foundation, Legacy Faculty with CEO Space International, Senior Trainer for the Association of Comprehensive Energy Psychology, which he cofounded and served as its first president, and certified ritual elder with The ManKind Project. As exhausting as all this might sound, David maintains his own mental health by making sure he has plenty of alone time, as well as playtime with his wife and loved ones. His main website is DrGruder.com and his online course portal is GruderAcademy.com.
- Touch for Health
- Blue Sky Business Resources
- Elevate Summits
- SynerVision Leadership Foundation
- CEO Space International
- Association of Comprehensive Energy Psychology
- The ManKind Project
About David Gruder, Ph.D.
Now in the fifth decade of his career, Dr. David Gruder refers to himself as a recovering psychologist and professional troublemaker. Drawing on the dizzying range of leadership, training, consulting and clinical roles he has filled over years, these days this 12-award-winning clinical and organizational development psychologist mainly focuses on equipping leaders and influencers who are called to help repair and elevate the world with missing spiritual, inner and outer skills to succeed with their calling. Dr. Gruder’s main website is DrGruder.com and his online course portal is GruderAcademy.com. In this episode, he and I will discuss ways you can uplevel self-sovereignty and personal power in yourself and your clients during this age of ongoing societal upheavals.
Dr. David Gruder is a clinical and organizational development psychologist whose parents sent to Woodstock when he was 15 years old. His passion is equipping leaders and influencers with spiritual, inner and outer skills for repairing and elevating the world in whatever ways each is called to do. Named America’s Integrity Expert by Radio-TV Interview Report, this 12-award-winning TEDx speaker provides keynotes, training programs, consulting, and media interviews worldwide, on integrating self-development, business success, and societal wellbeing.
This wizard at converting mindset mastery into effective actions has authored, co-authored, or been featured in 24 books and has given multiple hundreds of media interviews, including having been featured two-dozen times in Forbes, Inc., Entrepreneur, and NonProfit Performance magazines. In his quest to elevate mental health in individuals, leaders, and society, David wears many hats, including President of Integrity Culture Systems™, Psychological Business Strategist and Mergers & Acquisitions Psychologist for Blue Sky Business Resources & Elevate Summits, WayFinder for the SynerVision Leadership Foundation, legacy faculty with CEO Space International, senior trainer for the Association for Comprehensive Energy Psychology (which he co-founded and served as first president), and certified Ritual Elder with the ManKind Project. As exhausting as this might sound, David maintains his own mental health by making sure he has plenty of alone time as well as playtime with his wife and loved ones. His main website is DrGruder.com and his online course portal is GruderAcademy.com
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