On Your Mind | Nadine Pfeifer | Confidence Building App

 

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Nadine Pfeifer And The Hopstair Confidence-Building App

It’s lovely to be here. I’m Nadine and I’m the Founder of HopStair.

Nadine, I appreciate you joining us. I would love it if you could start us by telling us about how you got into the work you do and what drives your passion for it.

I get asked that question quite a bit, which is not too surprising but people are always like, “Nadine, you sound so much like a coach. Do you want to change the world?” I always say, “Yes, I do.” The basic premise of my work centers around the concept of confidence, which is quite widely misunderstood. If you ask people about confidence, they tend to usually have a dictionary definition as to what that is, let alone a deeper understanding as to why it’s important and how would you go about building it.

On Your Mind | Nadine Pfeifer | Confidence Building App

Confidence Building App: Confidence is a concept that’s quite widely misunderstood and quite under-explored.

 

Usually, we stay as a society at the periphery thinking it’s all about presentation skills, networking, or things like that when it’s much much deeper. That’s probably not even 1% of what confidence is all about. For me, it was a hindsight scenario where in my late twenties, I realized that I had built my confidence by accident. Looking back, I realized I had no confidence needless to say that’s why I’d built it.

For me, that building of my confidence was such a transformational change for my life, which is 180 degrees to the point where I look back and I couldn’t believe that I was living life so differently, not differently in terms of necessarily the daily tasks but how I approached it, my mindset, attitude, and well-being. All of those sorts of things ultimately bring you happiness and joy or take that away from you but it didn’t stop there. That was the igniting point.

I went on a personal quest. I started a blog around that time. I talked to lots of people about that topic. Fast forward a few years later, I would get serious about it in the sense that I founded HopStair with the mission to educate and raise awareness about the topic that such a key gap in our mental health services landscape, what we talk about mental health, and what we consider to be important for our mental health. Also, to build a solution that helps people build their confidence.

To help my comprehension, how did you come up with the name HopStair?

One person in the past told me, “Nadine, you need a sexier explanation as to why you chose HopStair.” You get the non-sexy version, which effectively is what we started with being called Little Nudge. It sounds quite nice, doesn’t it, but the word nudge is overused and over trademarked so we got into the typical things that you would expect but effectively, I wanted to file a second trademark on a name. That raised some concerns from other companies that only had the trademark Nudge, not Little Nudge.

Long story short, we didn’t have a choice but to rebrand. We went again through the hundreds of names that were possible. The names that we could come up with all were centered around confidence either with the word or something equivalent. HopStair got into the mix because it’s very mobile. It’s about climbing a stair. It’s getting closer to your goal-type connotation.

I quite like personally that piecing together. It is like Facebook, which meant nothing at the time when it was created but now, it’s like a brand name. You don’t think about Facebook. It’s not a normal word but it’s pieced together by two other words. The same principle is how we created HopStair. It ended up on the shortlist being the name that no one hates. It’s very important. A lot of people said they liked it much better than a little nudge. I’m sure opinions go the buried but it’s also important that you consider the social handles, trademarks, and domain names.

Building Confidence Where There Was None

We’re hopping up a stair and taking a step in a direction towards a certain goal. The goal, in this case, is to improve self-confidence or build self-confidence if we’re starting low. What are the foundations of what you’ve discovered were needed for you to build confidence where there was none?

For me, I’d build it by accident. What I mean by that is I’ve always been forever curious. I was lucky to have a certified coach in a few jobs ago. I wanted to understand what coaching was. I started with mentoring. I had no idea what mentoring was but I wanted to explore coaching. The exam question I’d posed to my colleague/coach was, “I’m stuck in my career. I want my next promotion.” That was the premise of the coaching sessions. She effectively worked with me over six sessions. Within twelve months of that first session, I had built my confidence to a strong degree.

The word confidence didn’t come up. We didn’t even talk much about a promotion. It was all about challenging how I talk about myself, how I view myself, and how I understand and appreciate myself. It was a lot of feedback playback of my mental narrative about myself. That was a key change for me. The starting point of my confidence-building journey was to shift that from a glass half empty to a glass half full. It sounds very esoteric but it’s true. This is what I can do or what I can’t do yet.

Is it possible for you to give us an overview of what was your view of yourself? What were the kinds of internal thoughts you had before that coaching?

I had a whole lot of issues and maybe I’ll start at that point. I would experience a lot of the classic what we could consider mental health symptoms. I inherited depression from my mom for example. I also inherited her low confidence. I suffered from a lot of anxiety and stress. I worried a lot about a lot of things at all times. I worried about what other people had to say about me. I was worried about things that somehow might go wrong. It’s that obsessiveness about, “Have I done something wrong? Why did I do it wrong?”

Any piece of even considered minor constructive criticism would be blown out of proportion in my mind. In the work context, I was in quite a few roles where there was a lot of what we call 360 feedback. You’d get feedback from around the place. You may have had a bad moment and you maybe didn’t act right in a particular situation. I don’t mean anything outrageous but it could be that you made a comment that you won’t quite be aware of. That feedback would come back and I would blow it out of proportion.

It would be made into a catastrophe like, “I’m worthless. I’m the worst human being on the planet. How could I have done this? What on earth?” It’s to the point where I get such big anxiety that it would have physical symptoms like heart palpitations, unable to sleep, and so on. It was a very destructive, negative, and obsessive way to approach the world and interact with stimuli around me, either the ones directed at me or imagining that everything had to be about something negative to do with me.

When you looked back a year later and realized it had been changed and you started to figure out how did that change, what did you learn? Was it necessary for you to change your confidence?

The first key aspect was when it came to my performance. A lot of feedback would be about the things I have to improve. That’s a very human primal tendency to over-focus on the negative instead of the positive. Also, over-emphasize. For example, you might get negative feedback but it might be on something that will never be your strength. It will never be something that you will ever be good at but maybe your employment context wants to put you in that box.

Let’s say you are very creative but you’re suddenly supposed to do a lot of Excel spreadsheets. I’m just making a random example up. That might never be something you will excel at. It’s not in your natural gift. What a confident person would do is be like, “ I will do my best here but I’m going to be upfront that there will be a limit to what I can deliver here and maybe be pulling somebody whose strong point this is.” A non-confident person will try and work this through, “I need to work with these Excel spreadsheets somehow.” You set yourself up for failure. That was the shift for me.

I suddenly could identify, “You’re approaching me with this feedback.” I could put feedback in boxes. “This feedback can help me get better in terms of my strengths and passions, where I want to be, and what’s within my gift to change. This is the feedback that I cannot do anything about.” I would disassociate that I would no longer take it so personally. It’s that kind of shift. That’s a tangible example but I could extend it to other other things.

Similarly with the example, maybe you have set the wrong things in a conversation with someone. Instead of obsessing about it, you’re like, “Wait a minute. What happened there? I acted too fast. I didn’t give myself time to think, consider the context, and do this slowly and deliberately. I’ll put that in a box, lesson learned. Going forward, I’m going to do it this way.” There’s peace in your mind. There’s no obsession anymore.

How did you make that shift since you were stuck on beating yourself up and obsessing about things you couldn’t control? What were the keys that you found to help you make that shift?

It is that mentorship towards strengths and positives within yourself that will help you also prime yourself towards the strengths and positives around you, have more of an action solution, and give you a more constructive lens. If you already have a negative image of yourself, you view yourself as someone who’s faulty, flawed, and all these negatives. That’s how you will experience the environment.

Prime yourself towards the strengths and positives around you. Click To Tweet

What this coaching helped me do is see what I bring to the table, what I can do, and what I am capable of. Those are the things that I could see. I pride myself on looking at those things and identifying opportunities, how they can be even better, and building on those. That mentor shift is a key part of it but also even understanding the first step is to understand what those strengths are and take the time to take those in.

As an example, we did a Myers–Briggs in which opinions were divided, whether it’s scientifically invalid or not. It’s helped a lot of people. I remember she went through with me and said, “These are the characteristics. The strengths typically are associated with your profile. How did that feel?” I was like, “This is so boring and this and that.” All sorts of negative things came to mind when these characteristics popped up like diligence and thoroughness. She was like, “Why? These are characteristics that any employer would love to have.”

It’s that stuff that she helped me see, those subconscious thought patterns as to how I’ve viewed and processed my environment in terms of how it relates to me and how I see myself. Effectively, how you deal with your environment is a reflection of what you think about yourself. It’s a mirror. Holding up that mirror and showing that to me was so eye-opening. Gradually, I was able to shift. It’s a longer-term process but gradually, you shift that perception to a positive and strength-based one.

That’s a critical thing. I can see how that could help you. If you identify with the help of your coach that your particular filter looking at yourself is skewed to the negative, if you’re willing to see the other side of it, then you can make a lot of progress. What else do you do with the HopStair program that helps people either identify places where they’re skewing negative with their view of themselves or build different strengths or tolerance for their weaknesses?

I’ll use a couple of visual analogies. On one hand, think about it as an onion. One thing that’s difficult about confidence, maybe as a bit of context, is it’s very tightly related to self-awareness. Step one is effectively the more you know about yourself. The more you appreciate those traits you’ve discovered, the more confident you will become. It’s not the only thing that builds confidence but it’s the key part.

The more you know about yourself, the more confident you become. If you really don't understand yourself, you can't be fully confident. Click To Tweet

If you don’t understand yourself, you can’t be fully confident because you will be unaware of what drives you, your values, the unhealthy habits you might have, and all sorts of things. You need to take that time to go on that journey to understand yourself. How do you understand yourself? Bring in the onion as a visual analogy. Most people will stop at that outer layer. Say for example they say, “I don’t like Greek food. I don’t like to go in these social settings because I don’t like people.” It’s the outside but I always tend to say, “You need to ask at least 10 whys, probably 20, ideally 50.”

What I heard you say is you want somebody to ask themselves 10, 20, or maybe even ideally 50 times, “Why don’t I like Greek food? Why don’t I want to go in this? I’m going to dig deeper into the reasons I hold for why I do what I do.” Is that correct?

Confidence And Understanding Yourself

That’s right. Knowledge is power and that holds true for your mental health and confidence. The more you understand yourself, the more you understand what sorts of things might get triggered if you are in a social context. Let’s say, for example, you might hate to go into a social setting for various reasons. Maybe you feel self-conscious about how you look or another part of you. Maybe you’ve had a very difficult situation in the past that’s stuck with you.

Maybe someone laughed openly and bullied you in the past in a social context and it makes you scared that will happen again. Maybe someone outrightly told you that you suck at social interaction or you can’t make friends. You’re not a good friend. It could be all sorts of things or narratives that you may or may not have processed that happened to you at one point and that’s stuck with you and give you the reason as to why you feel so afraid to go into a social setting. If you don’t understand that, all you know is you don’t like social settings. Ultimately, a key part of confidence-building is to strip or go deeper.

On Your Mind | Nadine Pfeifer | Confidence Building App

Confidence Building App: A key part of confidence building is to know yourself at deeper and deeper levels.

 

To understand yourself at deeper levels.

There are limitations to how far you can go with that level of introspection within an app format, which there is, but it will give you a starting point. No solution in the mental health space will be able to do everything. What we are able to do is help you get into the swing of things to do that introspection as one aspect of confidence building. In Johari Window, there are things about yourself and what other people know about you. Well done.

As humans, we tend to get scared about the things we don’t know. We don’t like unpredictability, uncertainty, or being surprised but that’s key for us to build our confidence. We have to ask people, “What do you think my strengths lie? Where do you think my weaknesses lie?” Those are things you may not know. If you’re very confident, there’s a good chance you won’t be surprised any more as to what comes back because you’ll know the good, the bad, and the ugly.

The trick is to also try and put yourself into situations where you discover the things you didn’t know. That’s a big loop back to the hindsight moment I had back in the day because I had no clue that I had no confidence. I didn’t know. How do you discover that blind spot that you don’t know and other people don’t know about you? It is by putting yourself into different situations that will reveal an aspect of yourself that you haven’t discovered yet.

Be willing to ask the why questions about what happens when you go in there.

Not everyone can necessarily afford a one-to-one session. I would highly recommend it. It’s a beautiful thing. The point of the coach that we say is the process of coaching is you’ll get asked a lot of probing questions and it’s very much about unlocking things. You already have them somewhere in your head but you didn’t compute or put them together yet. It is those whys. It is peeling back to onion. It is like increasing that window of the things you know about yourself and that builds confidence.

Suddenly, you have the root cause as to what’s driving some of your unhealthy habits. The social interactions may be a small thing. Some people suffer from addiction and things that are harmful in more immediate ways to themselves. To understand what’s causing and fueling them takes time. We all have these things. There’s no shame in going down that rabbit hole. It’s not always pretty. We don’t like revealing the dark sides of ourselves but they are there. The only way to get to the good side for good is to go on that journey.

One of the primary steps is learning more about yourself at deeper levels with honesty. What’s next? What else does the HopStair app or program do for a person?

We generally tend to call it comfort zone but it can sometimes have a negative connotation. What we’re trying to do is give people tiny activities. It could be something quite basic. Take a different route to work, say hello to a stranger, or do something you wouldn’t normally do. To a degree, that could be pushing the comfort zone. It’s simply very routine.

That’s the whole brain aspect of the brain taking up so much energy proportionate to its size in the body as an organ that a lot of processes get automated. We need to challenge ourselves. The automation is good. We don’t have to think about breathing. That’s good. It’s one thing off of our plate every day but a lot of other things get automated as well and we don’t think about them anymore. We’re on autopilot. We do need to consciously stop ourselves or artificially engineer. Make tiny changes to that routine.

We get prompted to make that observation.

Observe and be mindful. That’s why there’s so much resistance within humans to change because it takes us outside of that comfort of knowing the swing of things. We know the 10 steps we need to do or the 50 things. We got to go up. This is breakfast. We drop the kids to school. We know the routine. It’s in our head. As soon as we bury it, we get stressed. “I have to think about what I need to do because I’m not used to it.”

There is a balance to be struck. We need that routine. We have limited energy within our body so we need to use it wisely. Infusing your life, your every day, with a little bit of things that are different helps you to have a more conscious perception experience of that day, which will illuminate a side of you that you didn’t quite understand or know yet in that sense. I don’t know if I’m making sense but I’m sure you’ll put mine eloquently.

It sounds like you’re helping people build confidence because they keep stretching a little bit to have success. If they stretch a little bit and they don’t have success, then you help them with the questions of why and they can discover, “This was hitting one of my weak spots so I can adjust. The next steps I take that will be outside my comfort zone might be a little bit more toward my stronger.”

A lot of people get almost ashamed like, “How could I have not known about this before? Why didn’t I know about this thing?” It’s almost like it’s a shameful thing to discover something new about yourself. I would flip the script because this is beautiful. “Congratulations, here’s your trophy. This is great. This will help you tremendously.” As a society, there’s this pressure to be perfect and get it right the first time. It’s frowned upon to get it wrong.

These classic sayings are overused like, “We have to fail to succeed.” Ultimately, that’s the same truth for all of us. We can always take the example of babies. The only reason they learn so fast, and they learn a whole language in a couple of years, is because they get it wrong a million and one time, probably more than that, but they keep doing it. It’s the same with the exploration of ourselves. We need to keep going. We’re not going to get it right. We wake up one morning and be like, “Had I known this years ago, life would have been different.” It’s okay. You have not lost a valuable lifetime here. You still have gained a lot of experience through that process.

All I was trying to emphasize here is the word achievement. We tend to reduce it to, “I got a promotion or a new life partner,” or something that is “tangible.” Achievements are also to learn about yourself. One of our strap lines for HopStair is to invest daily in your mental health piggy bank. What’s the piggy bank? You make daily deposits. That’s in a monetary sense but it’s the same for us. It’s not about uncovering everything about you in one day but it’s peeling back that onion a little bit every day. It doesn’t have to be the whole onion because that’s way too much.

Asking a whole series of questions about why I like this or I don’t like that, learning more about myself, and then breaking out of into the mindless pattern of routine. I’m stretching, having different experiences, and watching my response to it. Is there more that’s in the app? Are you taking them to another level after that?

What Confidence Really Is

The two other things that are important for confidence building are quite interesting and maybe not as obvious from the get-go. It sounds super simple but one is simply to understand more what confidence is. I kid you not, there are a number of times when I’ve worked with people, say student projects or individual student work, just people I have worked with or I’ve spoken more about. It could be a 15-minute chat or a 6-week project. It doesn’t matter but people diving deeper into what helps them be more confident.

Suddenly, they are more mindful of certain things in their lives because of the complexity of confidence. They might suddenly be more aware that they have difficulty setting boundaries with people who are bad for them or trying to take advantage of them. They might suddenly be aware that they’re trying to please people and compromise their well-being for that. Even microscopic actions, reflections, or further thought are only possible by having a greater idea.

Imagine you only have a house and that’s all you know about houses, the shape. You talk for an hour with the builder and they explain to you a little bit more about the construction and what’s required to make it a solid building. That would probably help you to manage your home or the place you live a bit better because you know what’s required for a house to stand. It’s maybe a terrible analogy but the point is the more you understand the depth of something, the more you are able to connect different things to it, which triggers that learning process.

How do you help people understand that deeper level of what confidence is?

A few things. On the one hand, we do a lot of outside the app like free resources, whether that’s me doing group sessions on the topic or social media, which is there to provide informative, helpful but also inspirational booster type of content. Many people would come to me like, “I had never thought about confidence that way.” That’s very much also the premise of the book I’m writing on the subject to make confidence relatable because of how big it can be for people to conceptualize a word as a thing.

Here’s a snippet of content. It’s all bite-size because we’re talking about an app. As soon as it’s too long, we’re not delivering novel-size reading materials because no one’s going to engage with that on the mobile platform. It’s concise and snappy but it’s that kind of variety of, “Here’s a fact about confidence you may have not known about. Here’s something about statistics, how widespread it is, and how it’s built. What are the constitutional parts of confidence?”

In other content, we already discussed things like general science as to what goes on in the mind when it comes to confidence building. The more you understand the concept and yourself better, the greater your confidence. The exercise part is the introspection part. All these sorts of things come together in the kinds of content that also within the app bring to the user.

There’s one more aspect of the app. What’s that?

You can do it yourself but will enhance it through the app. Another key aspect of confidence-building is the community. That’s something that’s not as obvious perhaps as the other parts. Why? It’s because we tend to think of confidence as a very individual exercise. It’s about us. We need to be confident. We are either not confident or we want to be confident. We don’t tend to necessarily see it as a group exercise. That’s very important.

What I tend to see with particularly unconfident people is they tend to have other unconfident people in their circle. In principle, that’s not necessarily a bad thing but what tends to happen is the subconscious surfacing of insecurities of various kinds usually means certain not-so-healthy behaviors. It also means that the actual attachment between people, the reason people are friends, is oftentimes at least partially influenced by compensating with each other for certain insecurities.

Take for example someone who perhaps has a magazine beauty and the other person has not a magazine beauty. One person is perceived as more popular and maybe gets attention. The other person traditionally is not. It’s a very superficial example but the point here is the person who usually doesn’t get any attention at all suddenly gets attention because in the context of somebody who does. The other person does get a lot of attention and can feel extra good. They’re with somebody who they’re better because they get more attention.

My point is neither of those people is confident but both want to get something. It’s more of a partial or full reason for the friendship to be transactional. The reason why that’s bad is probably already obvious. Not that friendships don’t matter. In the good times, they do. Particularly when you’re going through a rough time, if you want to call someone at 3:00 in the morning, those are not going to be the people who pick up. Those will be the first people to abandon you because there was not enough substance for that friendship.

It wasn’t because you both come together as whole people and want to make each other better but because you want something from the other person. That’s not available when you’re calling them at 3:00 in the morning. The same principle applies to confident people. They’re at least very aware maybe not to the maximum confident but fairly confident people around them. The relationship doesn’t change. In good times and bad times, they’ll have your back. There isn’t that like, “You are my friend because you can help me balance out my insecurities. No. I’m with you because I’m already a whole person or I’m working on myself. I’m here because we share genuine interests and we have care for each other.” It’s a very different dynamic.

I see too many times that people are very unconfident or left to their vices in moments of particular need. What I’m trying to say is communities are important. Know that other people struggle with confidence but also take a very hard look at your circle. I’ve had conversations with people before who went through periods where they entirely changed their circle because they realized they were the only ones calling them and no one ever called them. That’s a painful realization but it’s needed because that is going to be the prompt for you to build the circle that has your back where there’s mutual care.

What we have enhanced through the app is giving people the ability to share notes, “What has helped you build your confidence? What is best to do with other people who are on that journey too?” Confidence can be hard to publicly talk about. “I’m struggling with confidence. I have all these shame and worries.” You don’t do that on LinkedIn and maybe even in your wider friend circle. You might do it with one person. If you’re in an anonymous community of people who are going through a similar thing and different ways, there is that ability to share and it makes that whole journey a whole lot easier. There will be resources that have helped someone that will benefit you. That’s the last part.

Take a minute, get centered, and think, “What have we talked about already that I might want to go back and highlight,” or something that we haven’t even touched on yet that you want to put in here for people so they get a little bit more of an incentive to check out HopStair?

One thing that we haven’t specifically touched on is whenever I speak to people, and it depends on how you define confidence and so on, what people’s understanding of it is, but by in large, around 80% or more of people struggle with their confidence. If you sit there and think, “I’m probably the only one or everyone so confident around me.” The truth is it’s very unlikely the case. You are very likely going to be one of the very many people who are going through the same thing. That’s an important piece of validation.

It can feel very isolating to even admit to yourself that you want to work on yourself. Maybe you are a people pleaser. Maybe you would have terrible boundaries. These things can be very shameful and embarrassing to admit but without that admission, there’s no way forward. Shame and pride will only hold you back in that growth facing those quite difficult emotions sometimes but I swear 10 out of 10 or 12 out of 10, you’re better off for it. That’s the first key thing to note.

On Your Mind | Nadine Pfeifer | Confidence Building App

Confidence Building App: Lack of confidence can be very shameful and embarrassing to admit, but without that admission, there’s no way forward.

 

Don’t go by looks and perceptions. Most people particularly in certain cultural contexts in the world are either born or raised very crafty in terms of keeping up a mask of themselves. Somebody who’s very outspoken, dominant, loud, and visible has no correlation whatsoever with their confidence. Don’t be fooled by people with masks, whether it’s a physical mask, makeup, or fake hair. Also, whether how they speak or articulate. Don’t get fooled. Focus on yourself. Focus on checking in with yourself. “How confident do I feel? Why don’t I feel fully confident?”

There was a student, which is a good daily prompt for anybody. I asked him at the end of the project that I did with that group, “What is your definition of confidence? How has that changed?” He said, “Confidence for me now is about how true to myself am I in any given moment. For example, do I behave the way I would behave if no one was watching? Do I talk like I would talk like no one is watching? Do I go into the spaces I would want to go as if no one was watching?” What he means by that is going back to the social setting. If that’s where you want to be, you should go. Lack of confidence means that you don’t go because there’s a reason but it goes against what you wanted to do.

A lack of confidence would have me going to a place I don’t want to go to.

It goes both ways. It holds the same with clothes. Do you need to dress this way or is this the absolute requirement for that event? Can you wear something that makes you feel good? Are you holding back on your opinions?” Whatever it is that you feel like is not true to you is a good reminder on a daily basis to ask yourself. Think back about the onion.

The self-reflection, introspection, asking of those whys, those comfort zone things, changing up your routine, and all these things help you peel back that onion. That’s a big onion. You know how many layers an onion has. You need to chop one and a half and you’ll see how many layers they are. This will take time. It’s a process but see it as an investment that you do every day and a little thing you do every day. All of these little points of reflection will help you peel that back. In my view, it becomes less scary.

Don’t focus on everything at once. For example, say you have social anxiety. Maybe that frightens you to bits. You could try it in small but it may be too big of a mountain. It might be to the point of paralysis that it detracts you from trying to do something. Maybe try something else or do it on a much smaller scale. These achievements don’t have to be massive. The vast majority of these achievements are tiny the progress you make on a daily basis. Focus on the stuff that feels doable and you’ll be fine.

Focus on the stuff that feels doable right now, and you'll be absolutely fine. Click To Tweet

The website is simply HopStair.com. You’re in the process of finishing a book and the app is still being built. It’s got other aspects that are coming out. I encourage people to take a look at this. It’s good information about how you can build your confidence. That’s one of the most useful tools any of us can have to interact in the world and be able to feel like, “I’m okay being my genuine self.” That’s one of the triggers for me knowing, “Is my confidence up or down?” Thank you so much for sharing with us, Nadine. It’s a pleasure to meet you and hear about this work.

Likewise. Thank you so much. Very great questions. They had me thinking quite a bit, which I appreciate a lot.

Thank you for your time. I look forward to following the app.

Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Take care.

 

Important Link

 

About Nadine Pfeifer

On Your Mind | Nadine Pfeifer | Confidence Building AppWhen it comes to building self-confidence from the ground up, Nadine Pfeifer has “been there, done that” and built a confidence-building app called HopStair! Nadine is a senior manager in healthcare by trade, with a social and behavioral science background from the University of Oxford. Nadine has been an expat for 15 years, originally from Germany, but has since traveled all continents. Nadine has a huge love for travels, Africa, music, dance, and exercise. You can learn more about Nadine and the confidence-building app at HopStair.Com

 

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